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crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/3/01 11:28:40 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All How to Ditch a BAD client
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Hoping someone here can help me with an issue I have. In the past I've never had any really bad clients...until now. I'm hoping someone else has been in a similar situation and can help me deal with how to tell this guy to jump off a bridge as professionally as possible. I've never had to do this so I'm hoping someone can give me some pointers!!
The situation has been an on going nightmare. For starters, a simple project that should have only taken three weeks max to complete drug on for over 4 months because he is so unorganized and had serious communication problems (he would say one thing but mean something totally different which obviously caused issues with the development). While the project was being done, he was given a url to the development process and told to check it out and make sure that everything was going in the right direction and to test it as things went along. I would ask for information and it would take days and sometimes even weeks before I got it, then he would expect me to drop everything and do his stuff.
After releasing the site to him because he said it was "ready to go" I quickly found that he had not completed all the testing and was blaming me for it. He claimed he couldn't get into one of the areas because it didn't work properly - but he had never told anyone!! He also kept changing the scope of the project and how the end product would work. I think I also make the mistake of allowing him to do this one too many times before I had finally put my foot down and said enough. He stopped changing the project once he realized more money would have to be involved.
I also had to write up extensive documentation, hold his hand constantly and explain simple things over and over and over to him. He would ask a question get an answer then turn around a month later and ask the same question again and to make matters worse, most of the questions were answered in his documentation that I provided to him of the final product - or in his request for proposal that he provided me before we even started the project(believe me I also pointed this out to him but it didn't do any good!).
I am now to the point that I have avoided his last three e-mail's since the project was completed (I cringe each time I see one). He has gone in and modified some of the original code and broke it and I know he's just expecting me to go in and fix it, and he won't want to pay for it (we had a discussion about additional charges and he doesn't like the fact he will get charged when he breaks it) however I think I have gone way above and beyond the call of duty at this point for him.
David Cressey
Registered User
(4/3/01 1:54:36 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Slip out the back, crakrjak
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There must be 50 ways to leave your client!
Next time the client wants you, you're just "unavailable". You don't have to say why!
Regards,
David Cressey
Not all those who wander are lost.
crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/3/01 2:26:29 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Slip out the back, crakrjak
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Thanks David, however I am already painfully aware that this approach will no work with this guy. The project was completed just before Christmas and I told him then I was leaving to go out of town for the holidays (didn't tell him how long) and avoided about 30 e-mails for three and half weeks before I finally responded to him. To him, unavailable means "E-mail to death" until you receive a response. The good thing is, he never calls - or I'd be yanking the phone out of the wall (Just To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I had a project 4x the size of his and had 1/3 of the correspondence with that client than I have had with this guy)
I'm trying too keep my cool and be professional at the same time, but this guy just can't seem to get the hint! I don't know if I should just lie to him, totally ignore him or just be honest and tell him why I do not want to continue any type of relationship with his company?
Aesirblood
Registered User
(4/3/01 3:32:37 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Make a new plan, Stan.
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Just reply to one of his e-mails with a price listing of what your service will cost. No small talk, no "hey how are ya."
Perhaps a one-liner along the order of:
"Please find attached a price quote listing > attachment.doc"
And make sure to collect half up front before doing any work.
Good luck. You sure this guy isn't an in-law?
Tony Soprano SW Engineer
Registered User
(4/3/01 4:00:47 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del No need to be coy, Roy...
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crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/3/01 4:05:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Make a new plan, Stan.
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Yea, I'm sure...my in-laws are better than this Actually a friend of mine just gave me a good idea since I am incorporated and do all the work remotely. Said maybe I should *retire* and let someone else take over the company since I have previously been so nice to him...and respond to him saying that the contract was completed, however there is no support contract on file and if he would like on-going questions answered, items fixed, etc. then he would have to sign a support agreement at $125.00 hr. and must pay a 40 hour retainer upfront. (Belive me this will make him run!) heh
Dick Young
Registered User
(4/3/01 6:06:09 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del If you got the money, honey,..............
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All of the suggested subterfuges are all well and good, but you are actually letting this guy dictate how you run your business. You can't "DO DAT".
I understand how tough some people are to deal with. I have an instinct to avoid conflict myself - whenever possible.
This client sounds like the classic example of the Missouri mule - first you must hit him between the eyes with a 2x4 to get his attention or he will never listen to what you say.
Since the project is completed, you must reply to every communication from him with the same basic message. "It's done, everything else means MORE MONEY!", along with a signed scope of changes, including
prices (per hour or per milestone - your choice) and a partial payment. You've got to hit him over the head with this message until he either agrees or goes away. And if he agrees, you've got to stick to the terms and get a signed change scope, test plan, acceptance standard, and down payment before you do a lick of work. This guy may be totally clueless, disorganized, and obnoxious, but he could mean future revenue - IF you can get him trained. Hmmm, maybe Janet can write a new book on "Training the Client - the Art of Housebreaking the Clueless".
Good luck.
David Randolph
Registered User
(4/3/01 6:22:52 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Don't need to be shy, Hi.
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I stopped a bunch of calls from one client by simply detailing that all future calls would be billed in 15 min increments at $40/15 min. The same can be told to a client for emails.
"***, Inc. will charge you $30/email for each email needing a response. No email will be responded to until $500 has been received as a deposit. These responses and other work will be subtracted from that amount and once that amount has been exhausted, no further work or email responses will be done until a further amount is received. The further amount will be determined at that time."
RMP
Registered User
(4/3/01 6:35:18 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Community Supporter
Asked to support unsupportable product
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Very good replies here, I can certainly relate. It seems like we're in a somewhat similar situation; a client asked us to take over support of a product that was supposedly in good working order except for a few minor changes needed, and the vendor would give us all the documentation etc. we needed, etc.
Now it appears that the software we were given doesn't match the software installed at another site that works, our software was never demonstrated, documentation is utterly nonexistent, the vendor's attitude is "we don't have time and besides we finished and the client got everything they paid for", and we can't even confirm whether the source we were given matches either executable. Yet the client refuses most requests for cooperation. They seem to think it's our consultant's fault (which is extremely doubtful since all of our other clients he worked with are heppy). They seem to want me to replace him but it's hard to pin them down as to what they really want. Our consultant says we should dump them.
I'm thinking of bringing in another consultant to give a second opinion and recommend how to proceed, which I suggested to the client and they haven't responded, even though another consultant would most likely agree with the first one - but maybe that's what it'll take to convince the client that what's needed is a completely different type of project than they expected. Not a project to take over support of functioning and documented software, but a postmortem and/or a project to reverse engineer defective and unsupportable software and/or replace it from scratch. It'll be interesting to see how they react to this news.
Any suggestions?
Robert M. Pritchett, President - RMP Consulting Partners LLC
People - Openings - Benefits - Fees - Acid Test - Umbrellas - Per Diems - IRS
crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/3/01 7:35:42 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Don't need to be shy, Hi.
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I think this sounds like a very good approach considering most of the e-mails are repeated questions. I know he won't want to go with paying money each time he sends me an email. He even e-mails me when he can't FTP to his server or it's down - I don't know how many times I have told him that he needs to contact his hosting company for those issues.
Another thing that is irritating is this guy can just be down right rude. For example he e-mailed me stating that he found a good deal on a new dedicated server and the hosting company "would install php & mysql for free which I charged him $100.00 to do". WELL DUH - I'm not his hosting company, I'm surely not going to set up his server out of the kindness of my heart! (sorry just had to vent a little!)
Lessons Learned:
1. If client asks you to work with them on an ongoing basis before you've written one line of code - they are more than likely the kind of client nobody else wants and you probably don't either.
2. Don't say you will work for them on an ongoing basis until you have completed the contract and seen what type of client they really are. Be polite and just say "let's see how this goes first".
3. Have a clause in the contract that states the client cannot duplicate and resell the site in any way shape or form without paying you some sort of licensing fee/royalties.
crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/4/01 3:46:37 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Update on BAD Client
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Just thought some of you may be a teensie bit curious about the status of this jerk.
Today, I created a 2001 Policies and Procedures for any work after a contract has been completed, and had my "Assistant" sent it to him.
Basically what I came up with was $75.00 an hour for each support incident/question, sent e-mail, snail mail, phone or fax - if I get it you get charged for it - miniumum $75.00.
Any code broken due to clients modifications gets smacked $150.00 per hour to get fixed.
Client must sign the acknowledgement, and send it in with a $1000.00 minimum twards his account for future requests. All request from that point forward are to be in writing on the forms we provided. Client will receive a monthly statement with detailed information on each charge to his account.
And what is this jerks response?
"I still have unanswered questions. I'm not reading this until you answer them"
Where's that 2 x 4 someone mentioned yesterday - I need it. Seems like I'm trying to talk to a brick wall.
TomScott
Moderator
(4/4/01 4:10:56 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Community Supporter
One of the reasons I stay away from certain tools
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The situation you are describing is especially prevalent with Access and VBA, which is why I refuse to take a job using these tools. Every two bit manager who fancies himself a programmer decides to take up Access and prove to the world how great they are.
Getting into Delphi was the first thing to cure that, and in the Oracle world I haven't seen it at all. The clients I have dealt with in Oracle would no sooner mess with your code than I would mess with the wiring in SDG&E's transformer down the street.
More info on Scott Consulting, Inc.
Bigman
Registered User
(4/4/01 4:19:03 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del DEV NULL
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Dinosaur
Registered User
(4/4/01 5:50:46 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Update on BAD Client
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Well, now you know. The guy is milking you for free support. Wean him, cold turkey, starting yesterday.
Without further notice. He'll get the idea when he gets no response to emails and voicemails. And of course if he manages to catch you live on the phone, you will have an emergency interruption.
As my Irish grandmother would say, drop him like a dirty shirt.
Over what hill? I don't remember any hill!
RMP
Registered User
(4/4/01 6:10:16 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Community Supporter
Re: Update on BAD Client
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"I still have unanswered questions. I'm not reading this until you answer them"
Give him a 900 number to call. Or when he calls (or emails), ask for his credit card number or a purchase order number.
Robert M. Pritchett, President - RMP Consulting Partners LLC
People - Openings - Benefits - Fees - Acid Test - Umbrellas - Per Diems - IRS
Jah Wren Ryel
Registered User
(4/4/01 7:02:53 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Update on BAD Client
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Put a filter in your email client that routes his stuff to a specific folder. Don't even read the folder, it will just cause you heartburn. If he calls you, and it sounds like probably won't for a while, be blunt and tell him that you would be glad to do business with him once a support contract is signed - he'll likely blow that off and try to get you to start answering questions. At which point you tell him that you have to go, that you are a late for a meeting and that you will talk with him later, goodbye and hang up the phone before he gets a word in edgewise.
David Randolph
Registered User
(4/5/01 12:00:04 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Run out the door, Noor
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'"I still have unanswered questions. I'm not reading this until you answer them"
Where's that 2 x 4 someone mentioned yesterday - I need it. Seems like I'm trying to talk to a brick wall.'
Stop talking. If he isn't listening, don't talk. If he calls, "Sorry, I've got to run." and hang up. Unless and until you have an agreement on payment, talking to him is only taking emotional energy from you.
Now, the most important thing you can do at this point is to GET ANOTHER CLIENT. Yes, get out there and start acting as if this client does not exist. I've been in this kind of situation and my client tried to put more pressure on me to provide stuff for free after I cut them off. Having other clients gave me the freedom to ignore their pressure. Get out there and get another client.
crakrjak001
Registered User
(4/5/01 12:13:17 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Thanks everyone
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Just wanted to say thank you for all the advice. I'm going to be doing what I was told not to do in the first place because it was "too unprofessional" - ignore him.
David Randolph
Registered User
(4/5/01 12:14:13 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Get off the bus, Gus
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"I still have unanswered questions. I'm not reading this until you answer them"
Translation: I read this. I don't like it. So, I'm refusing to admit that I read it.
The reality is that once we have received something, that is considered to be the same as having read it. (Process servers do not have to make sure that the person _reads_ the summons, just that the person got it.) You've done all that you need to in order to refuse to respond to anything he sends you in any way. Its time to get off of his bus.
SharonMarshRoberts
Registered User
(4/11/01 7:33:06 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Just listen to us, Gus
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Robert--
Have you asked the client what course of action they prefer? Maybe they're balking because they see a different path to the same place. Or maybe they're experiencing some "internal conflict" between the remote site and the initial one with which you dealt.
Anyway, if you tell them the problem (probably again, I know) and ask them how they wish to proceed, then you can tell them, among other things, whether it's feasible and how much more it will cost them.
Emphasize that you were told you were dealing with one release, not two. And emphasize that any difference between code and executable precedes your involvement and therefore is not covered in your estimate/contract.
Best wishes,
Sharon
RMP
Registered User
(4/12/01 12:33:49 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Community Supporter
Re: Just listen to us, Gus
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Thanks, Sharon, and it's good to see you here. I brought all this to the client's attention (again) and they just want all their stuff back and everything put on hold until they decide what else to do next. Our consultant had an insight that shortly after he showed them how to do or fix some little thing, they don't need us any more, so apparently it was all just for picking our brains and that's that. The unpaid balance isn't enough to fuss over but certainly we can require them to pay it to get all their stuff back (good thing I put it in the contract) or to help them with their next stumbling block (if we ever want to deal with them again).
Robert M. Pritchett, President - RMP Consulting Partners LLC
People - Openings - Benefits - Fees - Acid Test - Umbrellas - Per Diems - IRS
JC
Unregistered User
(5/8/01 2:04:31 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Non payment with Contract
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What should a person do if the client is not paying his invoices due to their cash flow crisis. What if months of invoices are owing? How do you insure that you get paid for these overdue invoices? It may be breach of contract but wouldn't the legal hassle take months or years and then if the client goes bankrupt you are out a lot of cash.
Any suggestions?
RMP
Registered User
(5/8/01 3:30:03 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Community Supporter
Re: Non payment with Contract
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Not much you can do. If they haven't gone bankrupt yet, turning them over to a collection agency will at least hurt their credit and get their attention and get you in line to collect if anything does get paid. It may not do you any good though.
If you created intellectual property for them, you should ask a lawyer and/or the Business Software Alliance about repossessing it. That might give you some leverage.
Robert M. Pritchett, President - RMP Consulting Partners LLC
People - Openings - Benefits - Fees - Acid Test - Umbrellas - Per Diems - IRS
ElendrilS
Registered User
(5/10/01 10:31:21 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: How to Ditch a BAD client
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I have been through this scenario a dozen times.... to the point where I thought to myself, "When will I learn?". Over the years, i have learned quite a bit actually, and have learned that the time to bail-out is early in the problem stage! These guys can BREAK you, financially and emotionally... and can ruin your business by withholding payments, demanding immediate 24/7 service and bad-mouthing your work to everyone they meet. The longer it drags on, the more ammunition they get to bad-mouth! You are in a no win situation!
Several years ago I attended a seminar (Great Plains Software) in Fargo, ND that changed all that! The presenter suggested that 80% of a consultants revenue, job satisfaction, demands, problems and pain came from 20% of his clients... and it wasn't necessarily the same 20%. In other words... Unless carefully managed, you can easily spend your time looking after a client that is causing you 80% of your problems while providing only a small percentage of your revenue.
His advise?
FIRE 20% of your clients every few months!! Determine which 20% are causing you 80% of your problems and FIRE THEM! What you will be left with, after only a few months is the time to recruit NEW clients that better fit your working style, and the cream-of-the-crop clients that pay on-time, appreciate your service, and give good references to other businesses! Good references are worth $$$$$!!!
He also suggested several ways to FIRE them, in a professional manner, while preserving your good name.
(Ignoring problems, not returning calls, telling them off, does nothing for good word-of-mouth... you can be sure they will let everyone they know what a lousy job you do! and it will come back to bite you! Assigning the client to a junior consultant or co-worker doesn't work either, since the bad publicity this client is giving you still reflects on your company)
Here are his suggestions: (all of which work wonderfully and have interesting side benefits)
1. Refuse to work until past-due invoices are up-to-date. If payment is being withheld due to "unsatisfactory" performance get those issues resolved before investing more time in the project. The higher the receivables, the more you give up negotiating power! Better to right-off a few hundred dollars than go broke trying to collect it!
2. Raise your prices. This will either move the bargain hunters elsewhere, or make it financially feasible for you to meet your demanding clients demands! Higher prices will help establish you as a successful and sought-after consultant as well. This took me a long time to learn... but just look at lawyers... If you could afford it, would you rather be defended by a $600/hr lawyer or a $100/hr lawyer? If my life depended on it, I'd go for the most expensive one I could afford!
3. Fill your appointment book! Being busy is good for business and it puts the client in a waiting line. They realize that your business is not dependant solely upon them. "Our earliest available appointment is in 3 weeks" gives the client little to "bad-mouth" about except that you are too busy... which really sends a pretty good message to other potential clients. If I was looking for a consulting firm, I would want the busy one! And I would wait to get them.
4. Refer them to other firms. Due to an increased workload, other responsibilities, whatever... you are unable at this time to provide the client with the service they require. "We suggest you contact XYZ & Company, who will likely be able to better fill your needs!" Its professional, doesn't leave the client without answer to his problems and generally improves your image in the community. The company you refer them to may be a closer fit for the client. It can become a win-win-win situation.
5. Sell the client to the competition! (This one has a satisfying irony to it) Let your competitors know that you have a client that last year generated X dollars in revenue, but that because of growth in you business you are unable to properly service the client. If you can sell it for a percentage of future revenue or flat fee, then you end up passing your "problems" to your competitors and getting paid for it!! Life is grand! :-)
Hope these ideas are helpful. Putting them into practice has provided me with a satisfying and rewarding experience in the consulting/systems integration business for over 10 years. I have a client base that pay well, and on-time. and appreciate my work. I have time off for family, I get invited to parties, I get hugged, I enjoy serving them. I have zero receivables, I sleep at night!
Leigh Sheppard
Micro Pacific Computer Corporation
micropacific@home.com
Ted Graham
Registered User
(5/10/01 10:41:26 am)
Reply | Edit | Del ElendrilS, that is a Great Post(tm)!
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Janet:
This one is probably worth saving on the main page.
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