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| Author | Subject | LVITR
Unregistered User
(12/13/00 11:52:29 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All | I have a question...
Please, not trying to start a flame war or anything, but I have a question.
I read this BBS once every week or two and I read all these terrible experiences you guys have with brokers. My initial thought every single last time is the same:
"Why the constant dealings with strange brokers"
I know you guys/gals have been in your field many years, have you not in all that time found a broker that will keep you working, that you trust to work with, etc?
I have two primary brokers I work with, and one much more than the other. He comes to me with potential gigs, and if I come across a gig that I can't wait for the typical corporate billing period (probably one of my largest frustrations) because I need to pay someone I hired for the gig I bring the gig to him and have a check in my mailbox every week. He and I speak weekly, he understands the structure of my business, and I have worked multiple engagments with him at the same time.
Yes, I send my resume out to strange brokers and yes, I have had some of the same experiences you guys/gals do, but I usually can laugh them off because I know that I have a good broker in my corner.
Haven't you guys/gals in all the years in this business run into someone like that?
Please, I am not trying to start a flame war here, just wondering.
| somedumbbum
Registered User
(12/13/00 12:20:31 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | I'm still looking.
Every time it looks like I've found someone decent, they pull the old bait-and-switch routine, or something stupid like that.
"Yeah, it'll pay $X."
After I've cinched the deal w/ the client:
"It turns out they can only do $X-5."
| Farnorth
Registered User
(12/13/00 12:26:14 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Re: I have a question...
LVITR:
If I were able to find a broker 1) who's first interest was finding me work, and 2) who could continually keep me busy, I might consider it.
I haven't ever found that person or firm. The reason why? Who pays.
Most brokers with whom I deal are more interested in keeping the client happy, whatever it takes. After all, who pays the mark-up? If a broker has to decide between the client and me, guess who loses? Add to that the broker's interest to maximize their income by minimizing mine (since there is usually a limit to what the client will pay), and you have a relationship ripe for distrust.
We often talk about wanting a broker relationship that is more similar to an actor or writer's agent. They would work for us in return for a percentage of our salary. I think more of the retained search firm that used to be available for employees as well as companies; if I was willing to pay the fee (usually a percentage of my first year's earnings paid out in installments), they looked for the perfect job for me.
Now, if I let a broker know I'm available for work, and they happen to know of a client who's looking for my skills, we have a match. Otherwise I'm not likely to hear from them again until that job walks in the door.
You know how it works. I believe you place Oracle people in Las Vegas, right? I also know that if you've got a great candidate for whom you don't have a fit, you will let other brokers and recruiters on the other board know about them. But you don't actively pursue it. You're looking for people who meet your clients' requirements, right?
My current broker is willing to represent me for other contracts available with the current client, but beyond that, they aren't. So if I don't like what's available with this client, or I don't want to work for the client again, I need to move on to a new broker who has a contract I want.
I've worked with some hardworking, ethical brokers. I don't think you're all scum. I'm just careful. There are a lot of bad ones out there and you all are in it to 1) make money for yourselves, 2) satisfy your client, the company hiring manager, and 3) for the contractor (since it only makes sense to place us more than once). I'm in it for myself too. Nobody is representing my interests except for me. A broker is a vehicle I have to use unless I want to do the footwork myself. I don't.
| Jeremy Singer
Registered User
(12/13/00 12:41:17 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | re: why not the same broker
1. I used to give the broker with my current gig first crack. Most of the time, they didn't come through. This business is a lot about timing.
2. Brokers I've really liked move on. I've found that when a particular person leaves, the organization very often has no memory of me.
3. Brokers that may have been adequate to get me in the door fall asleep and don't attempt to get me a raise at renewal time when I ask. They make me sign contracts that prevent me from looking after my own interests so that they can do it, and then don't do it.
| LVITR
Unregistered User
(12/13/00 1:01:59 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Re: I have a question
"You know how it works. I believe you place Oracle people in Las Vegas, right? I also know that if you've got a great candidate for whom you don't have a fit, you will let other brokers and recruiters on the other board know about them. But you don't actively pursue it. You're looking for people who meet your clients' requirements, right?"
Actually I was on two Oracle gigs, both contract. One was for a Big Five looking for functional implementation people, the other was technical developers and DBA's here in Vegas. One gig ended in July, the other in Oct. Since Sept I am on a contract with a gaming company looking for Embedded Software Engineers, Object Oriented Software Engineers, and Hardware Engineers.
The answer to you question is yes, if I find someone I can't use, but I like the person and want to help them, I will usually pass the information over to other recruiters, without charge to the other recruiter, to try to help the person, and because the sharing of leads always comes back in return. At the very least if they are local I will give them the names of a couple of recruiters I know that won't "hurt" them.
The idea of having a broker represent the techie has been brought up on this forum many many times. In fact, if I am not mistaken, didn't a member of this forum in Texas start just such an arrangement?
Here is Nevada there are laws that govern such a thing. I could only take a fee from a "candidate" or someone looking for work under very specific circumstances. I remember when I first moved to Vegas in 1994 it was very common. You would see ads in the newspaper "Pit clerk $10 per hour $1500 fee" or "Casino Armed Security $15 per hour $2000 fee" I could never believe that people were paying those kinds of fees for $10 per hour jobs, or a lot of the time even less, and obviously they weren't because you don't see those ads anymore.
I think there is some merit to an idea like that. Companies would be a lot faster to use recruiting firms/consulting firms if it didn't cost them anything. You have to look at it from the recruiting firm point of view to realize why it would never happen. At this current client I am the ONLY consultant here. They won't allow consultants because they feel they are doing top secret work here, and consultants wouldn't have a "stake" in the company to keep what they are doing secret. I have talked until I am blue in the face that they are wrong, but they will choose to keep a position unfilled then to bring in a consultant.
I have vendors (recruiting firms)I use to assist me in filling some of the positions here. We pay 20% of the first year salary to these vendors. If we hire a Software Engineer at $75k that is a $15k fee to the vendor. To look at that in the view of the recruiting firm, they realize it is common sense you are not going to pay $15k to a recruiter for a $75k per job. Same applies for consulting. The money is by billing the clients, not the consultants/candidates/job seekers and that will never change. I really don't see anyone jumping to the other side of the street for the lower fees unless it is an ex-techie who starts his own firm. Even in that case I have SEEN with my own eyes ex-techies who get greedy when they see the $$$ that can be made.
Please guys, I am not trying to start a flame war here, just my point of view. As I have said before, I am a 1099 consultant myself so I see this from both sides, as a contractor and a recruiter.
"I haven't ever found that person or firm. The reason why? Who pays."
That is really a shame. When I started in this business it was about building relationships with both clients and candidates/consultants. What better situation than to be able to place the same consultant(s) on billing after their engagements end? If you have a consultant who does good work, the client likes, you can TELL clients have done work for you in the past, etc why not do whatever you can to keep them on your payroll, instead of the payroll next door. From a business standpoint that is why I see success in firms that hire FTE as their consultants and contract them out over and over again, keeping them even if their is bench time.
"My current broker is willing to represent me for other contracts available with the current client, but beyond that, they aren't. So if I don't like what's available with this client, or I don't want to work for the client again, I need to move on to a new broker who has a contract I want."
Again, I just don't understand the way some people do business. If you had been working on my payroll, the gig ended, you had marketable skills, and you asked me to find you another gig, I would see that as a marketing opportuntiy, an opportunity to go out and get a new client that uses whatever skillset you have that would hopefully lead to present and future business.
| David Cressey 
Registered User
(12/13/00 1:13:50 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Will you still love me, tomorrow?
I pretty much echo what Jeremy has said. (Hiya, Jeremy!)
I ran into a broker that really worked hard for me (and for himself) to turn a difficult job situation into a successful one. I also played a role: I did the technical work. But, without the broker's intervention, the job would have ended in about six weeks due to personalities.
So I liked this broker. BTW, he's the guy I "did lunch" with. And he was initially starting to look around for something for me, before the contract finally ended. But, just as this was going on, the broker suddenly terminated his association with the agency.
I never heard from him again. The agency tried to get me more work, but they were as clueless as the average agency. And they were very mysterious about the reason why the broker left the agency.
I think they discovered that he was treating a contractor decently, and did the only thing they could do: they fired him.
I'd be curious to find out why your experience is so different from that of a lot of us.
Regards,
David Cressey
Not all those who wander are lost.
| LVITR
Unregistered User
(12/13/00 1:28:35 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Do a good job and I'll love you forever....
"I'd be curious to find out why your experience is so different from that of a lot of us."
In a lot of ways it's not. I get calls from body shops wanting to pay -$20 or more my rate, I get calls for gigs that never come to be anything, I get a lot of the same things you guys do. I think there are a few reasons why my experience is a little different.
1. I do a lot of my own marketing.
2. I got lucky and found one AWESOME broker
3. I know both sides of the business so I am not going to fall for B.S. tactics.
Can I make a suggestion? Recruiters get fired from jobs everyday. Back in my agency days I used to see good people get fired for B.S. reasons all the time, same as I have seen good techies get fired for B.S. reasons. Why not get your brokers cell phone number and keep it with his contact information. I have not run into many recruiters who would not share their cell number. Chances are that:
1. He didn't know he was about to get fired so he did not have a chance to get the contact information of the consultants he was working with.
2. He is going to end up SOMEWHERE and if he did a good job for you once, twice, three times, chances are that will not change because he changed agencies.
| Don Wallace
Moderator
(12/14/00 1:03:41 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | Here's what happened to me along those lines...
Sometimes things just get screwed up - EVEN WHEN you display loyalty to someone who has in the broadest sense treated you right.
Back in '94 I found a local broker/a broker found me. Our first encounter was a mis-step (they submitted me w/o my permission) but later I found a contract through them. Neither contract nor the client were great, but the broker kept their word on payment almost religiously.
After the contract ended I got involved in a personality conflict with the son of the owner, who was being indoctrinated into the business but who displayed some 'bork' tendencies (condescension and heavily control mentality.)
Along the lines you describe, while nobody's perfect (especially not these people!!) I consider this broker ethical on all important things and would use him again. They pay, they're full disclosure, and their commission is low. I *have* recommended this broker unequivocally to several people who have contacted me, but said "deal with Dad", Junior is a condescending pinhead who doesn't keep things very staight.
But curiously, not one person I've sent to this guy gets a call back, even though the phone message still identifies their business. I've left calls every 6 mo. - year myself and no call back.
WHATEVER. I'd use this broker again, warts and all. But they don't return their calls. Go figure.
Now... do I expect too much? I don't think so.
But I'm someone who WOULD use the same broker again, who assuredly is not perfect, but if they won't do me the courtesy of a return phone call and they don't act like they're in business, what is one to do?
Edited by: Don Wallace at: 12/14/00 1:03:41 am
| Farnorth
Registered User
(12/13/00 2:27:55 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Re: I have a question
If you had been working on my payroll,...
I'm not on anyone's payroll, I'm independent. That's the other part. I like being an independent. I like running my own small business. I don't like being on someone's payroll.
I hire a CPA and a lawyer. As a professional and small business person, I would like to be able to hire someone to market me. That is where I would like to see the broker role.
| LVITR
Unregistered User
(12/13/00 3:39:13 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Sorry, didn't mean it that way...
Simply meant that if I was your broker, paying your weekly......
| David Cressey
Registered User
(12/13/00 4:52:25 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Good Advice about the cell phone number
Yeah, that's a good tip. Next time I run into a broker I like, I'll get the cell phone number.
And if I meet St. Peter before I meet any other good brokers, I'll ask him whether there are a lot of agencies at the other place.... NOT!!!!
As far as you do your own marketing...so do I... with some success but not nearly as much as I'd like. But I don't market to brokers, except maybe to call them once in a while. I try to reach end clients with my marketing efforts.
End clients, when I can find them, are more willing to meet my rates, and more flexible about what the requirements are.
They do, however, want to know what I'm going to do for THEM, not just what I'm going to do. Fair enough. I want to know the same thing when I'm a customer.
Regards,
David Cressey
Not all those who wander are lost.
| David Cressey
Registered User
(12/13/00 4:57:09 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Hear, Hear.
Good points, Farnorth.
I'm not on anyone's payroll either. And the fact that LVITR
can't tell the difference between accounts payable and payroll says something to me.
And, espceially, "I'd like to hire the broker". If there were someone that's GOOD at selling, that can be persuasive without lying, can qualify customers, and understands what I do, I'd love to put that person on MY payroll!
(Or cut that person a check from accounts payable if that's the preference.)
Regards,
David Cressey
Not all those who wander are lost.
| LVITR
Unregistered User
(12/13/00 5:04:39 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | DIFFERENCE BEAVIS???
"I'm not on anyone's payroll either. And the fact that LVITR can't tell the difference between accounts payable and payroll says something to me."
Belive me, my POCKET knows the difference between AP and payroll very well!! :-) I say PAYROLL because when going through a broker, I don't know about you, but I get a CHECK in my mailbox ever week, not a statement saying our AP department owes you $XYZ. For me, that is the point of going through a broker when I could get gigs on my own and in some cases even TAKING DEALS TO THE BROKER. AP takes forever, going through a broker and getting on his PAYROLL gets me a check every week. As my capital increases I will wait for AP.
| Erik Haselhofer
Registered User
(12/14/00 2:07:15 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | Re: I have a question...
I think 3 things happen.
1. New contractors roll into the game all the time. The odds are that a contractor will get drilled the first, second or third time out. The problem is that once drilled, you never let down the shields, ever, and probably don't trust someone, even if they were honest. And I think broker's rarely if ever trust us. Of course, honesty in this biz can mean a 45% cut. I think, a lot of these postings are new contractors.
2. Brokers usually can't line up a new gig right when the old gig ends. Or, they are lazy and are hoping for an extension. Even the good one's probably don't have a steady supply of gigs. And so, the resume goes out, the phone rings, the voice speaks, the pain begins, aaaaaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhh!
3. Techies do a lousy job of communicating with each other. How often do we share contracts with each other? Hell, we probably view the guy in the next cube as our competition.
Personally, I'm hoping to do completely without em but we'll see what happens.
Edited by: Erik Haselhofer at: 12/14/00 2:07:15 am
| tracyb
Registered User
(12/13/00 7:41:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | The odds are against it...
First off, agencies seem to have a high turnover rate. By the time I've completed a contract, it's rare that the same people (client reps or recruiters) are still working there.
Ok, let's assume then that I've found a good recruiter who has maintained employment with the same agency. Now it all depends on whether or not they have any requisitions open which match my skill set. Frequently, they call me when I am in mid-contract, but have nothing for me at the time I really need a gig.
Ok, now let's assume that my favorite recruiter at my favorite agency has a requisition to fill that matches my available time frame. Even if I think the agency walks on water, the client may not care for the account rep. In this case, the client may not even look at my resume.
As of late, I use a broker interview to find out more about the brokers relationship with the client. Have they placed other contractors there in the past? How long have they been working with the client? When you see the same requisition out on DICE placed by 20 different agencies, you have to wonder which agency has the most pull with the client.
So to answer your question, I have a short list of recruiters that I contact when I'm in the market. However, if I limited my list to those few, I'd probably starve.
I actually find more work by networking with former co-workers than I've ever found through even the best recruiter on my list.
Edited by: tracyb at: 12/13/00 7:41:28 pm
| David Cressey
Registered User
(12/14/00 7:25:31 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | In the Boston Area
I think that in the Boston area, there are too many crooters for the jobs that are available. When a new opening comes up that's something I might be able to do, I get three or four calls from different 'crooters that all turn out to be the same gig.
They are all tripping over each other.
Then there are the "December calls". This must be what crooters do during the slow season. Here's the type:
"I just pulled up your resume from 1996, and I was wondering if you're still contracting. Oh, great... listen I'd really like an up to date resume...no, I don't have a specific job in mind right now, but with your current resume, I'll be able to find a relaly good match!
Yeah, right. The current resume says Oracle 8i on it instead of Oracle 7.3. That's going to make a better match. Yeah, Yeah, uhuh, uhuh.
Regards,
David Cressey
Not all those who wander are lost.
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